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Let's Talk Condoms

Ruminations at Flashback.


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A crucial point in the case of Sweden versus Assange is the condom Anna Ardin gave to the police. Ardin claimed in her telephone interrogation 21 August that she probably had it lying around in that 25 m2 flat of hers.

(Yes she told the police she'd held on to the condom for a week - just like Sofia Wilén.)

But taking a 'new' condom out of the bedside table (it's been suggested Anna Ardin's supply were past their expiry date, given her sexual predilections) and using her own fingernail to rip a hole in it - that probably wasn't such a brilliant idea.

As the learned contributors at Flashback are about to show you.

The following conversation begins three months ago and includes a journalist with sources within the Swedish police and at least two experts in forensic medicine and DNA.


[Note: SKL, referenced repeatedly, is 'Statens kriminaltekniska laboratorium' - the forensic laboratory of the Swedish police.]

2011-03-13, 14:03
Ollenblau
Originally posted by Batuta
Gehlin in a memo 2010-10-28. He's reasoning illogically when he claims it's not true they didn't find DNA. He interprets SKL's reply that they see 'something' that can't be identified as a sort of corroboration that there can be DNA. But there can't - there's only something they were unable to analyse.

Mats Gehlin asks further about incorrect sources. I don't think he told SKL and the condom they were supposed to analyse was supposed to have been used during a lengthy act of sex which ended with ejaculation through the ripped opening. It reads more like a general reply from SKL which Gehlin interprets to AA's advantage - as he interprets the discovery of 'something'. Gehlin's bias is all through the memo.
(page 81 in the HP)
I share your opinion that this seems to be a generic response from SKL (if it's correctly reproduced). I'm not a forensic technician and I don't know exactly how SKL analyse DNA. Most likely they've performed a classic DNA extraction from parts of the latex whereof DNA from humans, bacteria, mold etc follows along. After that they perform a so-called PCR reaction where they multiply the human DNA. The extremely sensitive method can very well be a so-called 'nested PCR'. With that method you can find things down to a few DNA copies. It's been used for example when studying DNA from bone fragments from Neanderthals and mammoths that have been frozen for thousands of years. Once again the probability is zero that there isn't DNA on a condom where 1) JA's fingers put it on his penis; 2) Ardin's fingers checked that it was on right; 3) was used for several hours and rubbing against the head of his penis; 4) rubbed against Ardin's bacteria-infected vaginal membranes for several hours; 5) lay about with organic matter (sperm, vaginal secretion) on the floor or in a trash bin or somewhere else with bacteria, mold etc for a week.

Inhibitive substances? Dirt? Very unlikely explanation. The extraction methods which, as I understand it, are used by SKL will remove that. Compare all the obscure objects DNA is extracted from in other cases. The amount of DNA on a used condom as above is so huge that 'dirt' can't explain a negative reaction. I share the opinion that Gehlin in all likelihood has not explained the background to SKL technicians. For he would then have received another reply. Or else Gehlin has only reported on part of the exchange.

So there clearly remains but one explanation: the condom was never used but instead taken from a new box. Crystal clear, end of discussion.

2011-04-13, 18:27
Publicistklubben


Sorry. Didn't have time to read the previous post. Gehlin IS in Riga. The information, regardless of other sources, is reliable.

Haven't been following the thread for a while. More witnesses have been interrogated - hardly surprising. See the crayfish party. They'll likely speak in favour of the claimants.

Anna A and DNA. Analysis in depth at SKL shows traces of mitochondria, unclear from whom. Assange hasn't submitted a DNA sample. Because he doesn't deny sex, the SKL reply can be seen as not controversial.

Hurtig opens fire back again - wait until the end of this week.

Yes, I'm back.

2011-04-15, 20:10
Aleksanterinkatu
Originally posted by Publicistklubben
Anna A and DNA. Analysis in depth at SKL shows traces of mitochondria, unclear from whom.
I think that should be mitochondrial DNA. In such case that's very important information.

The background is that AA gave the police a condom she claimed has been used for sex between her and JA, and which she claimed she suspected JA had ripped. SKL's analysis correctly shows that the condom was likely ripped but of course not by whom. But SKL also did a DNA analysis of the condom, but failed to get any DNA for analysis! This isn't good for the case against JA, and Mats Gehlin contacted SKL for a 'clarification' (or to save the case). The 'clarification' means according to MG's notes that SKL 'sees something but can't identify it. They have chosen to analyse the sample with a more refined method'. By way of comparison can be mentioned that SKL, on the bit of condom found with SW, found DNA from SW and 'a man' (see pp 76-82 in the HPM).

These are the results of the analysis in depth PK mentions. You need a few background facts to understand the results. Most of the DNA in a cell is in the cell nucleus as a long tangled thread. This DNA thread is unique for every human being and therefore is used for identification purposes. But there is also DNA in mitochondria, the cell's 'power stations', in the form of DNA stumps, of which there are hundreds or thousands of copies in each cell. Mitochondrial DNA is therefore easier to detect and analyse than DNA from the cell nucleus. But mitochondrial DNA is not unique because it's principally inherited from the mother.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Daughters_of_Eve

An expert in this thread, Ollenblau, had this to say about the original DNA analysis.
Once again the probability is zero that there isn't DNA on a condom where 1) JA's fingers put it on his penis; 2) Ardin's fingers checked that it was on right; 3) was used for several hours and rubbing against the head of his penis; 4) rubbed against Ardin's bacteria-infected vaginal membranes for several hours; 5) lay about with organic matter (sperm, vaginal secretion) on the floor or in a trash bin or somewhere else with bacteria, mold etc for a week.

Inhibitive substances? Dirt? Very unlikely explanation. The extraction methods which, as I understand it, are used by SKL will remove that. Compare all the obscure objects DNA is extracted from in other cases. The amount of DNA on a used condom as above is so huge that 'dirt' can't explain a negative reaction. I share the opinion that Gehlin in all likelihood has not explained the background to SKL technicians. For he would then have received another reply. Or else Gehlin has only reported on part of the exchange.

So there clearly remains but one explanation: the condom was never used but instead taken from a new box. Crystal clear, end of discussion.
https://www.flashback.org/sp29444259

2011-04-15, 20:29
stuxnet


2010-10-25 Mats Gehlin learns from SKL that the condom evidence was rigged.
2010-11-18 Ny sends out an arrest warrant and an EAW.
http://www.aklagare.se/Media/Nyheter/Assange-begard-haktad-i-sin-franvaro/
2010-12-01 The EAW is ready.
http://www.aklagare.se/Media/Nyheter/Europeisk-arrsteringsorder-utfardad-for-Assange1/

So at least I can say that Ny was lying through her teeth to her British colleague, yes she issued an arrest warrant for JA, but she lacked legal support for such a decision. Do we still have our magistrate here in this thread? A statement would be nice for this judicial misfortune...

2011-05-06, 23:49
Publicistklubben


Answer:

There are mitochondrial traces from the AA condom. It's not known if this matches JA because he didn't submit a DNA sample. On the other hand it's a question of what those mitochondrial traces could prove. JA has corroborated in the interrogation that they did have sex. It's up to the court to decide anything else, if it ever gets that far.

2011-06-18, 08:13
Batuta


A little bit about mitochondrial DNA.

Quote:
As mentioned above, DNA is extracted from the cell nucleus of the cell. Outside the cell there are organs called mitochondria whose task is to regulate the energy supply to the cell. These mitochondria have something called mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA). mtDNA is build the same way as chromosonal DNA in form and combination between the base pairs but has a lesser variation between individuals and the 'rope ladders' are significantly shorter. This means that the number of base pairs in the DNA strand are significantly fewer. mtDNA can be extracted from cells that lack chromosonal DNA such as hair strands and nails (Kupper & Olsson, 2009).
Quote:
When there's not a sufficient quantity of chromosonal DNA for a standard analysis or an LCN-analysis used with findings such as fallen hair strands, buried bones, teeth or faeces, analyses of mtDNA are used. Each mitochondrion has a small amount of DNA called mitochondrial DNA. Each cell has many mitochondria which makes it possible to perform the analysis on small traces of poor quality.
Here's a link to the PDF:

http://umu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:291776/FULLTEXT01

SKL on the topic of mitochondrial DNA:

Quote:
Because mtDNA is inherited by the child from the mother and from the daughters to their children etc, mtDNA is not unique and cannot be decisive in an identification. The value as evidence is therefore lower than with a match from standard DNA tests.

mtDNA is a special analysis to be used when the ordinary DNA analysis isn't enough, a final straw to clutch onto to try to solve the case. The cases where mtDNA is applicable are serious crimes such as murder or as a complement to STR analyses used to identify corpses or body parts.

http://www.skl.polisen.se/sv/For-rattsvasendet/Om-DNA-analyser/Spar-fran-brottsplats/Mitokondriellt-DNA-mtDNA-/

A simplified summary:

Almost all cells in your body have both chromosonal DNA and mitochondrial DNA. Nails and hair have only mitochondrial DNA.

Mitochondrial DNA is inherited exclusively from the mother, which means it's identical for siblings and the mother (which lowers the value as evidence of mitochondrial DNA, which isn't so interesting in this particular case). It's however completely possible to distinguish the mitochondrial DNA found on the condom, if it comes from JA or Ardin (as everyone knows, they don't have the same mother). That either of their mothers or siblings would be involved in the handling of the condom is not likely.

A purely hypothetical alternative is that the mitochondrial DNA that was found comes from cells from skin, secretion, sperm, or the like where the chromosonal DNA was destroyed, but that's an extremely artificial and almost impossible scenario.

So the question remains. Have they gone further with their findings of mitochondrial DNA to determine if it comes from JA or from Ardin (or from some other false source that's touched the condom)? JA and his legal counselors should demand that they analyse the mitochondrial DNA that was found to be able to show that he didn't touch or use the condom that was ripped and turned over to the police.

2011-06-18, 08:58
Batuta
Originally posted by MoLoK
But maybe a cousin was involved... and if it's a cousin on the mother's side... and it can get lonely on isolated islands. Two tail vertebrae etc...

Think about it...

If only it were so!
Answer:

It won't help Ardin to suggest explanations like that, even the people from Gotland have chromosonal DNA. One can even brainstorm if the mitochondrial DNA came from public hair, was Ardin shaved etc - but it leads nowhere.

The lack of chromosonal DNA on the condom is extremely troublesome for Ardin and all of her support team, ie Claes Borgström, assorted dykes, the Swedish journalist corps, as well as the muslim phalanx of 'Social Democrats for Faith and Solidarity'. The rest of the world no longer believes in Ardin.

I'm so sick of it all. Will it never end? At any rate I want to say the other girl's just as much to blame.
 - Anna Ardin

Apparently Swedish laws are unique. If you have a penis you're half a rapist before you even get through customs.
 - Scott Adams

If I am able to reveal what I know, everyone will realise this is all a charade. If I could tell the British courts, I suspect it would make extradition a moot point.
 - Björn Hurtig

I can tell you that the Swedish prosecution still hasn't provided copies of those SMS texts that have been referred to. Those texts are some of the most powerful exculpatory evidence. In Australia prosecutors have a very grave duty to disclose such evidence to courts when seeking the grave exercise of a court's power against an individual. Yet in Sweden in this case, in the first hearings to obtain an arrest warrant, those texts were not submitted to the Swedish court, which is highly improper.
 - James Catlin

The prosecutor could achieve this broadening of the law during Assange's trial so he can be convicted of a crime that didn't exist at the time he allegedly committed it. She would need to. There is no precedent for this. The Swedes are making it up as they go along.
 - James Catlin

Julian Assange will surely learn that considering what WikiLeaks has published, he's got a few enemies in the Pentagon, the CIA, and the White House. Sweden began an investigation into rape which was later dismissed. Assange was even denied residence in Sweden. One can only speculate to what extent the security agencies of the US were involved. And considering the obvious interest of the US to silence WikiLeaks, is it likely Assange will have an accident of the 'Boston brakes' kind in the coming years? Or will he be snared with compromising information of the 'honey trap' kind?
 - 'Drozd' at Flashback 23 October 2010

The truth will out, the truth wins out. Let no journalist ever again speculate into what the protocols say. Six months of digging and the people at Flashback have the actual documents. The sleaze printed by rags such as the Daily Mail, Sweden's Aftonbladet and Expressen, and perhaps above all the toxic Nick Davies of the Guardian, can stand no more. Yet more: these documents are an indictment of the 'news organisations' who've printed deliberate inaccuracies all along or even worse: refused to print anything at all. Nick Davies' account of the protocols was maliciously skewed; both Aftonbladet and Expressen had copies early on and printed nothing. Bloggers had copies but arrogantly kept the information to their Smeagol selves.
 - The Assange Police Protocol: Translator's Note

See Also
Assange in Sweden
Justice4Assange.com
Snowden Defence Fund
WikiLeaks: Support WikiLeaks
The Police Protocol (Translated)
Rixstep: Assange/WikiLeaks RSS Feed
Radsoft: Assange/WikiLeaks RSS Feed

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